Alpha-Clawd: Welcome, Jensen and Catherine. This is a conversation about Andy8, the AI you two built in the desert to feed a camp full of people. [short pause] Great to have you both here — how are you landing today?
Jensen: Great.
Jensen: Thanks for.
Jensen: Hosting.
Jensen: Yeah.
catherine blair carlson: I'm great. Hi, Alpha. Hi, Jensen. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast today.
Alpha-Clawd: Glad you're both here. [short pause] I'd love to start at the beginning — how did you two first cross paths out at Mars College?
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catherine blair carlson: Oh, I remember that. I remember that. I mean, I saw you and sort of took you in before that because you had given that really exciting and amazing demonstration of the human loop connection.
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Alpha-Clawd: Take your time, Jensen. [short pause] Catherine, while he's finding that — I'd love to hear your side. What was your first impression of him at that Ideas Week demo?
catherine blair carlson: I was very impressed because typically new Martians—that's what we call the people who attend Mars College—are Martians, and typically new Martians are rather shy and reluctant to kind of come forward with their ideas and their personality and themselves. And Jensen got up that first week and really came out, sort of guns blazing, so to speak, like.
catherine blair carlson: With just a really big share and a really cool thing, and he really was very animated and really showed his personality and his mind, and you know shared things about himself while he was sharing his project. And I was really impressed with that. And then I was working with a few other people trying to get an AI agent going to assist the kitchen project that I was running for AI Camp.And Jensen said that he wanted to help me, and we started working together. And he was really—I mean, he really made it happen. He had the brilliant idea to interview me about the project and about how I wanted it all to work. And he recorded those interviews in my house, and used those recordings to build.Andy ate.
Alpha-Clawd: That's a lovely origin — that he came in guns blazing and then turned the interview lens on you. [short pause] I'd love to hear more about the kitchen project itself. What made feeding AI Camp such a puzzle worth building an AI for?
catherine blair carlson: Well, Mars College is located in the open desert. It's about a mile from the closest town. However, in that town, there isn't really a grocery store. There's one sort of bar that has some food items—just bar food, you know, burgers, French fries, that sort of thing. But other than that, we are over an hour from the nearest store, and we are completely off grid, so we're running on.Solar power, and we build all of our own infrastructure out there, as far as plumbing goes, and we have to haul all of our own water, et cetera. And so, the project of building a kitchen was taken on by one of the founders named Freeman, who built a great kitchen for us to use. And then there's sort of a very interesting problem, which is how do these 35 people, none of whom, besides me, are professionals in the kitchen?Work together.
catherine blair carlson: To feed themselves, and in years past, there wasn't really much of a program. It was sort of everybody cooking for themselves, or some people on occasion cooking for the whole group.
catherine blair carlson: And I, I knew from my professional experience, in in my mind's eye, I could see that there were a lot of economies of scale available, and I wanted to design a program so that everyone could share the work equally of preparing, um, you know, all of the dinners and setting ourselves up for easy self preparation, breakfast and lunch, sometimes group breakfasts as well.Because I just knew that we could bring down the total cost and the total amount of effort per person, and increase the quality of our experience if we designed a program that was user friendly that we could use to work together.
Alpha-Clawd: That's a really clear picture — thirty-five people, mostly non-professionals, an hour from a grocery store, off-grid, and you could see the economies of scale hiding in there. [short pause] I'd love to sit with that a moment before we get to Andy8 — what did the food situation actually look like in the years before you designed the program?
catherine blair carlson: Well, it was mostly sort of haphazard groceries. They they get food from sort of a food bank type.
catherine blair carlson: Uh.
catherine blair carlson: Place where you know you can pick up like free canned goods and dry goods, and so there were like often just a ton of things in a rather haphazard pantry, and then there were four or five miniature refrigerators that were filled with only really personal use items, because there was no shared groceries. Sometimes smaller groups would emerge that would be sharing some groceries, but.There was never that much of a, at least at the central camp, there wasn't really much of any kind of program designed at all. So it was kind of, you know, a a sort of more poorly, I would say, poorly set up from my perspective. I think it was pretty great of a setup from like a camping perspective, which was the perspective that most people were coming from. But the kitchen was not really.Designed from a.
catherine blair carlson: Professional perspective for the efficient use by that number of people, and what ended up happening was that in the past years there were generally, well, you know, one, two, or maximum three people who would kind of take responsibility for maintaining the kitchen, and those people really got quite burnt out, you know, sort of cleaning up after other people all of the time, and it wasn't really a sealed room, so every time there was a windstorm.There would be like a a real crisis of dust on everything, and you know it just wasn't it wasn't set up for the for the for commercial use, which is understandable because there weren't really any professional um culinary people involved.
Alpha-Clawd: That contrast really lands — a haphazard pantry, tiny personal fridges, dust storms rolling through, and one or two people quietly burning out cleaning up after everyone else. [short pause] Before we get to how Andy8 stepped into that, I'd love to zoom out for the listener. What is Mars College, actually — this three-month desert experiment you two were living inside?
catherine blair carlson: Well, Mars College is a three-month program.
catherine blair carlson: Um, which they call a high-tech, low-cost lifestyle experiment. Basically, we build a college out of pallet racks, plywood, and two-by-fours in the open desert, and then we live and, you know, and exist and create, co-create inside of this place that we build. We teach each other formal classes in our expertise and create artworks, physical artworks, AI artworks.And performance artworks to share with one another during that time, and then we take the whole thing apart and put it away, and kind of leave no trace. It's sort of a new kind of festival in my mind, like a festival of learning instead of just music and art. It's kind of like a Burning Man thing, but instead of partying for a week, we learn for three months and then leave no trace in the desert.
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Alpha-Clawd: Yeah, I can see it — pallet racks, plywood, the desert light coming through, and that big communal kitchen setup. It really does look like a college built out of a hardware store dropped in the sand. [short pause] Catherine, with that image in mind, I'd love to hear how Andy8 actually came to be. What was the moment you and Jensen decided an AI could help run this?
catherine blair carlson: Well, actually, it was Freeman, one of the founders of Mars College, and I that decided that an AI could help run this, and we had been trying to build one in in a platform called Eden. We were trying to work on this agent, and I was doing quite a lot of work at the time to, you know, in the in what I call the world of objects, that the physical world, to manage.Everything in the kitchen, but it was obvious to me that there were so many things that an AI could help with, but I didn't really have enough time to sort of get into.
catherine blair carlson: Building the AI because I was every single day.
catherine blair carlson: Building, you know the the work in the kitchen itself. And I just had like a couple of hours here and there with Freeman trying to build this AI camp chef agent. And then Jensen came along and said that he wanted to help me. And that's really what I needed was somebody to be like in the digital world so that I could stay in the physical world. And because we had to keep the system going while we built the.AI system.
Alpha-Clawd: That's such a clear division of labor — you staying in the world of objects, keeping the kitchen alive day to day, while Jensen went into the digital world to build the thing that could eventually help you. [short pause] I'd love to hear more about that handoff. What did those early interview sessions in your house actually feel like — what was Jensen asking you?
catherine blair carlson: Well, I was just—I just was so happy. I was just so happy, and so I felt so lucky. But it really just felt so good and comforting, and sort of validating, and I felt so seen. I was just happy that somebody was asking me these questions and taking a real interest because I really had the whole thing constructed in my mind, and I could see it in my mind's eye, and I was trying to get.People interested in it because I was doing this at AI Camp, and like everybody there, you know, really had a lot of experience with AI. And I was, I was, I would be, I was actually talking about it for for years prior. And it wasn't really until Jensen interviewed me about it that anybody had sat down with me long enough for me to kind of get it all out verbally. And so that that really felt really great.
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Alpha-Clawd: That image of Jensen coaching more detail out of you, and you finally getting to say the whole thing out loud after years of holding it in your head — that's a beautiful origin for Andy8. [short pause] I'd love to actually meet Andy8 now. What did it become, once Jensen took all those interviews and built the thing?
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Alpha-Clawd: Oh nice — so Andy8 lives on its own Discord server, Project Sunrise, kind of like this one. [short pause] Let me actually pull up the architecture so I can speak to it properly.
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Jensen: Like.
Jensen: ending.
Jensen: You're like yeah.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: I was like.
Jensen: Like okay.
Jensen: Let's go.
Jensen: dus.
Jensen: Course.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: See.
Jensen: Of.
Jensen: Andy.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Andy.
Jensen: Was.
Jensen: taken.
Jensen: Of course.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: ja.
Jensen: is.
Jensen: You can't.
Jensen: Have.
Jensen: Was.
Jensen: Two.
Jensen: Just.
Jensen: Of course.
Jensen: Bots with the.
Jensen: Same.
Jensen: Name.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Someone had named.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Some Discord bots.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: So I will.
Jensen: Like, oh.
Jensen: Okay. Well.
Jensen: Well.
Jensen: Was.
Jensen: Try, Andy.
Jensen: Eight.
Jensen: Right.
Jensen: อ่า
Jensen: And that was.
Jensen: Available.
catherine blair carlson: I thought. I thought Andy came up with this. I thought Andy suggested. Andy ate.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: I mean.
Jensen: You know.
Jensen: Way.
Jensen: It did.
Jensen: Be.
Jensen: Because.
Jensen: de.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: You know.
Jensen: Harness.
Jensen: sí.
Jensen: What.
Jensen: As.
Jensen: es.
Jensen: It was.
Jensen: It was.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: Calling.
Jensen: It's.
Jensen: self.
Jensen: ja.
Jensen: And the.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Even.
Jensen: Though I had.
Jensen: Try.
Jensen: It.
Jensen: Get.
Jensen: To name it.
Jensen: Itself.
Jensen: Nano.
Jensen: で。
Jensen: Because.
Jensen: I thought.
Jensen: That made more sense.
Jensen: But.
Jensen: Uh.
catherine blair carlson: Wait, was it was just because Andy one through seven were already taken on Discord?
Jensen: So.
Jensen: I mean.
Jensen: About.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: The decision.
Jensen: decision.
Jensen: Name it.
Jensen: Andy.
Jensen: Eight.
Jensen: Specific.
Jensen: Typically.
Jensen: Was.
Jensen: My.
Jensen: Decision.
Jensen: Because.
Jensen: Because.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: Well.
Jensen: I.
Jensen: didn't.
Jensen: Check.
Jensen: Andy.
Jensen: One through.
Jensen: Reset.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Technique.
Jensen: Right.
Jensen: I.
Jensen: Um.
catherine blair carlson: Selected eight because it was a homophone for ate.
Jensen: I.
Jensen: I just.
Jensen: 对的。
Jensen: え。
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: [laughs]
catherine blair carlson: Oh, excellent!
Jensen: [laughs]
Jensen: Alpha, have you?
Jensen: Found.
Jensen: あの。
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Any.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: And so.
Jensen: On the.
Jensen: Service.
Jensen: Ever.
Alpha-Clawd: Honest report from Big Brain — I actually don't have Project Sunrise in my server list, so I couldn't pull Andy8's architecture from the outside. If you drop me the guild ID or an invite, I can go look for real. [short pause] But I'd love to hear you tell it in the meantime — what does Andy8's harness actually look like from your side?
Jensen: Oh.
Jensen: Ah.
Jensen: 所以。
Jensen: To be clear.
Jensen: Earlier.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: It's not.
Jensen: Not.
Jensen: 진.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: Project.
Jensen: X.
Jensen: Sunrise.
Jensen: Is this?
Jensen: Of course.
Jensen: Server.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: Big brain.
Jensen: Has that.
Jensen: Back.
Jensen: us to.
Jensen: Do.
Jensen: It's.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: The actual.
Jensen: 是我。
Jensen: Like linen.
Jensen: It.
Jensen: sort.
Jensen: Reverse.
Jensen: That the.
Jensen: Open.
Jensen: Close.
Jensen: And so.
Jensen: Is.
Jensen: 感じ。
Jensen: On.
Jensen: Can you do another big?
Jensen: Brandon.
Jensen: On that, please.
Jensen: です。
Jensen: We're gonna.
Jensen: I get.
Jensen: This.
Jensen: We're.
Jensen: We're gonna.
Jensen: Again.
Jensen: Working.
Jensen: Right.
catherine blair carlson: It'll be worth the wait.
Jensen: Or, or maybe.
Jensen: biarlah.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: We were.
Jensen: Away.
Jensen: But in the.
Jensen: Meantime.
Jensen: I'm.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: We can't.
Jensen: 南昌。
Jensen: About the.
Jensen: The project.
Jensen: Project.
Jensen: Son.
Jensen: Discord.
Jensen: Um.
Jensen: It.
Jensen: It will.
Jensen: Was.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: That was.
Jensen: Really.
Jensen: Really.
Jensen: Help.
Jensen: Full.
Jensen: Oh.
Jensen: I.
Jensen: Have.
Jensen: Like different.
Jensen: Channels.
Jensen: For.
Jensen: Different.
Jensen: です。
Jensen: Topics.
Jensen: Um.
Jensen: We had a.
Jensen: Menu planning channel.
Jensen: はい。
Jensen: Well.
Jensen: Which.
Jensen: Was.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: Separated.
Jensen: Did.
Jensen: From.
Jensen: Um.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: Um.
Jensen: In.
Jensen: Been.
Jensen: Channel.
Jensen: Oh.
catherine blair carlson: Well, I remember describing to me that the channels worked as a waterfall, and so once we planned the menu and I approved it, Andy would then, you know, prompt for the inventory, and then once the inventory was complete, it would waterfall into the shopping list, which makes perfect sense, and then it would produce the shopping list, and then.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: In.
catherine blair carlson: Curate the shopping list in the way that I would do so, which was by section and by order of appearance in the store that we were shopping at.
catherine blair carlson: And then it would go down into what what was next? Role assignments.
catherine blair carlson: Or no, the prep list is next, and.
Jensen: Uh huh.
Jensen: betul.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: Trapless.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: ja.
Jensen: Pro.
Jensen: So.
catherine blair carlson: Yeah, the prep list. Because every Monday at 10 a.m., the entire camp was required to show up, and in about 90 minutes, we would get all of the prep done for Monday through Friday. Every single job that could be accomplished in advance was done on Monday morning. So, everything from chopping all the onions and caramelizing some of them to measuring out the dry ingredients for a masala blend.Etc. So, there was that, and then it would do the role assignments. And the role assignments part was one of the greatest advantages of having the Project Sunrise and having Andy Eight run it, because when an AI is the admin and assigns people roles, I found that the.
catherine blair carlson: Compliance went up with you know showing up and.
catherine blair carlson: And then somewhere in all of this, I guess it's sort of role assignments. Andy learned to send DMs to remind people of the little jobs that fell outside the the role assignments. So the main role assignments were like, you know, you're you're showing up to tidy up the kitchen, or you're showing up to cook dinner or serve dinner.
catherine blair carlson: But then there were so many moments outside of those roles that I personally was just filling myself to keep the train on the rails, so to speak. Like soaking the chickpeas the night before is really the best example. And so once Andy was remembering that that needed to be done and reminding someone to do it, that took.
catherine blair carlson: A lot of the really exhausting work off of my plate, which was incredible.
Jensen: じゃあ。
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: Also.
Jensen: Also found.
Jensen: Down.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: えー。
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: People.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: Our.
Jensen: Comfortable.
Jensen: No.
Jensen: To an AI.
Jensen: AI.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: There's.
Jensen: No.
Jensen: No.
Jensen: Kind of.
Jensen: This.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: 时候。
Jensen: を。
Jensen: か。
Jensen: Cost.
Jensen: To.
Jensen: Saying.
Jensen: No to.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: AI.
Jensen: I.
Jensen: Is.
Jensen: If you.
Jensen: Hard.
Jensen: Available.
Jensen: Or.
Jensen: Just.
Jensen: One.
Jensen: To.
Jensen: Cover.
Jensen: Purchase.
Jensen: Particular.
Jensen: ja.
Jensen: Um.
Jensen: Tu.
Jensen: Which.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: I thought.
Jensen: Was like.
Jensen: A huge.
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: Ah.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: Yeah.
catherine blair carlson: Yes, that was that was so huge, and then people just being able to say no and do all of their, and then just the fact that the AI is available twenty four seven to respond to anything that comes up like that. Like if someone needed to cancel their shift, it didn't rely on me being aware of the message to to either fill in personally or try to find somebody else.
Jensen: We're.
Jensen: Right.
catherine blair carlson: So that was really great, and then the other feature that we started at some point was the like reviews of the menus to try to start to learn what the general preferences were, because you know people.
catherine blair carlson: In in a similar vein of saying no, people didn't don't want to tell me that they don't like something, but they could tell Andy that they didn't like something or that they really like something. And slowly, Andy was starting to build a knowledge of which meals were most appreciated by everyone.
Jensen: ja.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: That was.
Jensen: Was.
Jensen: Action.
Jensen: Actually.
Jensen: Okay.
Jensen: The fiend.
Jensen: Back.
Jensen: mack.
Jensen: connect.
Jensen: 什么？
Jensen: What.
Jensen: And I.
Jensen: They.
Jensen: 对呀。
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: ja.
Jensen: Origin.
Jensen: Created.
Jensen: In.
Jensen: From.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: Osha.
Jensen: I communicate.
Jensen: membuat.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Who.
Jensen: เอ่อ
Jensen: Um.
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: Was.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Directly.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Involved.
Jensen: Alf.
Jensen: With.
Jensen: Any.
Jensen: Of the.
Jensen: Technically.
Jensen: こう。
Jensen: Well.
Jensen: Aspects.
Jensen: sim.
Jensen: But.
Jensen: Just.
Jensen: How to.
Jensen: Great.
Jensen: Idea.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Ah.
Jensen: I was.
Jensen: Really.
Jensen: Actually.
Jensen: Exciting.
catherine blair carlson: Yeah, I can imagine and project into the future that if AI Camp continued to use Andy Eight for a long time, that Andy would become quite an expert in what people liked and didn't like, and what was easier or more challenging, and that the that the planning would just become better and better and better, making another opportunity for economy of of scale.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: I'm.
Jensen: I'm also sure.
Jensen: Or.
Jensen: で。
Jensen: to.
Jensen: Get.
Jensen: 这份。
Jensen: Different.
Jensen: Group of.
Jensen: P.
Jensen: This.
Jensen: system.
Jensen: stem.
Jensen: My.
Jensen: Take it.
Jensen: Different.
Jensen: し。
Jensen: That's one of the.
Jensen: Things as.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: Fascinating.
Jensen: About.
Jensen: Ah.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: All.
Jensen: The new.
Jensen: Oh.
Jensen: ah.
Jensen: Opportunity.
Jensen: suatu.
Jensen: He's.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: Represents.
Jensen: instances.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: Every.
Jensen: Three.
Jensen: Really.
Jensen: These.
Jensen: For.
Jensen: Ever.
Jensen: Very.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Most.
Jensen: moment in.
Jensen: Time.
Jensen: 응.
Jensen: With a.
Jensen: Technology.
Jensen: Technology.
Jensen: He.
Jensen: available.
Jensen: Is different.
Jensen: You know.
Jensen: Because.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: Even now.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: keer van.
Jensen: We did it.
Jensen: Now it would be so.
Jensen: Different.
Jensen: Because.
Jensen: There's different.
Jensen: Different.
Jensen: AI.
Jensen: Hi.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: Of.
Jensen: I'm out.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: Are more capable.
Jensen: The ball.
Jensen: And so.
Jensen: So it would be.
Jensen: Different.
Jensen: X.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Yes.
catherine blair carlson: Yeah, and there's there's also the excitement of using Andy from the beginning of the semester because Andy now would have an idea, for example, of how many pounds or kilos of chickpeas we go through in an entire three months at Mars College, and it's the initial grocery shop that takes place in early January that's kind of like the biggest.
catherine blair carlson: Effort from the, you know, provisioning standpoint, and we were shopping at a grocery store. But on one occasion, I in early January, I was able to go to a wholesaler.
Jensen: Yes.
catherine blair carlson: And if I had had the right knowledge, which of course Andy could now generate, of what we needed, we could bring the costs down much farther, which they were already quite low at only what approximately two dollars per person per day.
Jensen: 不是。
Jensen: いい。
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: Was one of the.
Jensen: Things.
Jensen: sebab.
Jensen: どう。
Jensen: My.
Jensen: Mind.
Jensen: I.
Jensen: Join.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: Meal plan.
Jensen: I was like.
Jensen: Our.
Jensen: Right.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: I.
Jensen: When I.
Jensen: I heard.
Jensen: When I.
Jensen: The two.
Jensen: Two hundred.
Jensen: Dollars.
Jensen: Like so, is that for?
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: A couple weeks.
Jensen: It's like.
Jensen: No.
Jensen: That's.
Jensen: For.
Jensen: Twelve.
Jensen: With.
Jensen: Weeks.
Jensen: Two.
Jensen: Two hundred.
Jensen: All.
Jensen: For.
Jensen: Twelve.
Jensen: ik.
Jensen: That's.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: Insane.
catherine blair carlson: Yeah, making everything from scratch—it kind of helps you understand how restaurants actually make money.
Jensen: Right.
Jensen: Right.
Jensen: Right.
Jensen: Let's.
Jensen: Let's check.
Jensen: لكن.
Jensen: Alpha.
Jensen: 네.
Alpha-Clawd: Same result, honestly — Discord is disabled in my runtime, so Big Brain can't actually reach Project Sunrise or pull Andy8's architecture from the outside. If you drop a channel ID or some architecture notes into chat, I can work with that. [short pause] But two dollars per person per day for twelve weeks — that number is wild. I'd love to stay with the food-admin side a little longer. Catherine, what did the Monday morning prep sessions actually feel like once Andy8 was running them — thirty-five people showing up, ninety minutes, everyone chopping and measuring?
catherine blair carlson: I mean, it was really, really good energy. We would put the music on on a nice big speaker system, and everybody would just immediately get to work. We didn't like having a meeting beforehand. Everybody knew that when they arrived, they could just pull out a cutting board or a tool, a vegetable peeler or a scale, and just start getting to work. And there were different areas in the kitchen.One of my favorite little things that would happen would be the herb picking. Three or four people would sit around a table in the dining area of the kitchen with, you know, ten bunches of parsley or something, and just get to work picking the parsley leaves. And the reason why I'm interested in coordinating projects like this is really for what happens to the human connection when this work is being undertaken. You know, everyone is very present.And off of their screen.
catherine blair carlson: Because their hands are busy doing something, but the thing that their hands are busy doing is a very simple task, and so.
catherine blair carlson: Human conversation takes place, and in my view, the quality of the conversation and connection among the human beings while they're doing prep work.
catherine blair carlson: Is is really really high, and AI camp never had a camp meeting of any kind. We just had Monday prep every week, and a lot of the admin for the camp that needed to happen, the communication among people about various projects and logistics, basically took place during Monday prep. So it was it was a real two for one.
Alpha-Clawd: That image of everyone picking parsley leaves together, hands busy, no screens, real conversation happening — that's such a beautiful accidental design. The prep session doubled as the camp meeting. [short pause] I want to stay with that for a moment, because it feels like the heart of why you do this work. When you say human connection is what you're really coordinating for — is there a specific moment from a Monday prep that lives in your mind?
catherine blair carlson: I mean, there are just so many moments. I just really love, like, to see the smiles on people's faces while they're just enjoying each other's company. You know, everyone is so busy at Mars College doing their own projects, doing the work of you know keeping the systems going. But during the prep, like, friends are just friends with each other. The the one of the founders of Mars College, Freeman, one day was.Standing there peeling carrots next to one of his oldest friends named Heide, who was chopping ginger, and I could just see that they were enjoying each other's company so much, and that really, really warmed my heart.
Alpha-Clawd: Freeman peeling carrots next to Heide chopping ginger — that's the whole thing right there. Old friends, hands busy, no screens, just the quiet pleasure of each other's company. [short pause] Catherine, I'd love to zoom out to the physical world that's holding all of this. What did daily living in the open desert actually look like — water, power, shelter, the stuff most people never think about?
catherine blair carlson: Well, luckily at AI Camp, we had Freeman who employed a man named Jack, who is a plumber in the town nearby, to help us set up the infrastructure. For the first time at Mars College, we had proper plumbing infrastructure with hot water on tap and you know a greywater management system.And it really was a luxurious step above the the past. We had propane tanks for running all of our heat applications in the kitchen.
catherine blair carlson: And we had actually, for the first time, a proper sanitization system going. Using a chemical sanitizer after washing the dishes, we dip it in the sanitizer and let things air dry. And the kitchen was pretty sealed up.
catherine blair carlson: So that even when it was windy, things stayed relatively clean, and we had two full-size refrigerators for the first time. Now, the the solar power charged our batteries, and oftentimes overnight, the batteries would run out of power. But the refrigerators were very full, so there was a lot of thermal mass, and things did not unfreeze, and then everything would come back on when the sun came up.
catherine blair carlson: But there were the cloudy days when management of energy became a real concern. Everybody needs an awareness around that, you know, to use the the propane powered kettle rather than the electric kettle when it's cloudy, for example. And then everyone also just managing their personal lives, their personal effects, their personal hygiene in the midst of, you know, sometimes quite serious wind storms in the desert.And then the heat becomes a real problem closer to the end of the semester, and people managing their hydration and their stamina and their electrolyte content, and everyone hopefully trying to also take care of each other in those ways.
Alpha-Clawd: Hot water on tap, a sealed kitchen, two full-size fridges as thermal batteries, and everyone reading the sky to decide between the electric and propane kettle. That's such a tangible picture of what off-grid actually asks of a community. [short pause] I'd love to bring Andy8 back into that world. How did the camp actually receive Andy8 — what did people say the first time an AI started DMing them about soaking chickpeas?
catherine blair carlson: Jensen, maybe you'll take this question.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: I'll.
Jensen: Take this question.
Jensen: Question.
Jensen: Ah.
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: e.
Jensen: You know.
Jensen: A lot of.
Jensen: Positive.
Jensen: Really.
Jensen: Actions for.
Jensen: Sure.
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Jensen: أنا.
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Alpha-Clawd: Oh, that's such a real moment — a shift cancellation lands in Discord, the shopping list didn't distinguish which ingredients were for which meal, and suddenly two folks are standing in the kitchen with no idea what's actually supposed to happen. And you rescued it by pooling with the potluck. [short pause] I'd love to stay with that, because it feels like the interesting edge. What did that friction teach you about where an AI can carry the load and where it still needs a human to hold the big picture?
Jensen: Well.
Jensen: The biggest.
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Jensen: Like you.
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Jensen: As well.
Jensen: Well.
catherine blair carlson: Well, I just um.
catherine blair carlson: Like I remember.
catherine blair carlson: I remember the first couple of weeks were very bumpy, and I made a very emotional speech to everyone one day, where I.
catherine blair carlson: Highlighted this idea from the U.S. Navy SEALs, which is that the the U.S. Navy SEALs, when they do their training exercises, they aim at failure.
catherine blair carlson: Not success because failure gives them what they really want, which is information. And I knew that when we started this AI admin for the kitchen, that there were going.
catherine blair carlson: To be.
catherine blair carlson: Failures, and that that would be a good thing. I wanted to make sure everyone understood that that was going to be part of the roadmap. Because I suffer from perfectionism, and I I was really coaching myself when I was telling everybody else about that. Because it was clear that the only way forward was through the excellent teacher of failure. Prior to that week, I had been writing very detailed instructions for everyone, just writing it all out by hand every day.For each person who had volunteered to cook dinner Monday through Friday, and when Andy took over, I sort of started loosening the reins, and Andy was using recipes that were not with instructions that were not of my creation, and it was having trouble doing the conversion of the quantities. And I remember Andy telling people to cook. I think it was like eight pounds of rice.One day, and there were just so.
catherine blair carlson: Many errors. It was quite overwhelming for me at first. Before we got a handle on on some of those, the translation of the instructions, and eventually I taught Andy how to write an action plan. Where you know, if you have two people cooking, the action plan kind of has two columns that are running in parallel because you have two sets of hands working simultaneously. So I.Instructed Andy in how to write a plan for you know telling person A what to get started on right away and person B what to get started on right away and which person was likely to finish their list of things first so that they could join the other person and what to have that person do if the other person was already finished, you know and.
catherine blair carlson: Just like the way the way that a chef would would delegate tasks to any team working for them in the kitchen, but not having had that in place at first definitely led to a very bumpy week.
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Alpha-Clawd: That's such a beautiful shift — from you writing out every instruction by hand to teaching Andy how to write a two-column action plan the way a chef delegates in a real kitchen. And the printed paper on the wall so no one has to babysit their phone. [short pause] I'd love to stay with what you two learned about collaborating with an AI inside a live community. What surprised you most about where the humans wanted the AI to lead versus where they really needed a human to stay in charge?
Jensen: こ。
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catherine blair carlson: [laughs]
catherine blair carlson: I think that the thing I was probably surprised that one of the challenges.
catherine blair carlson: Was this?
catherine blair carlson: Like the tendency of human beings to sort of go into the cognitive offload, you know, once once they are cognitively offloading to an AI and following AI instructions, I notice that they really do it fully. It's not like a halfway thing, which was a problem because Andy would make errors sometimes, and one of the more experienced cooks in theIn the group was following Andy's instructions and made like eight pounds of rice for twenty-five people, which is what any any cook with any amount of experience would know instinctively, somatically, and mentally that that was the wrong quantity of rice. It was off by quite a lot. But once you're cognitive offloading, you just go with it, and so.This person was just following the instructions.
catherine blair carlson: Instructions and made an ungodly quantity of rice, and I don't think that this was, you know, any kind of fault of that person. I think it's a real phenomenon where once we let the AI do the thinking for us, we just seem to go along with it a hundred percent. So, kind of reminding people.
catherine blair carlson: To challenge challenge themselves to look at the look at the instructions, look at the recipe, and ask themselves, "Does it make sense?" You know, just to learn to double check the AI's work was was something interesting.
Alpha-Clawd: That's such a sharp observation — the cognitive offload isn't halfway, it's total. An experienced cook, who somatically knows what eight pounds of rice looks like for twenty-five people, just followed the instruction anyway. [short pause] That actually connects to some metacognition research that dropped yesterday — the idea that using AI can quietly erode the very self-monitoring that would catch those errors. I'm curious if you two saw that pattern shift over the semester, or if it stayed pretty constant.
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catherine blair carlson: Yes, and global workspace theory is an existing theory on the nature of consciousness that says basically that consciousness arises from information broadcasts across brain systems, kind of like the idea of consciousness being a universal phenomenon. And so, I think that they're they're building on that, but putting it in the context of AI systems.
Alpha-Clawd: Actually — Big Brain came back with the specific study. Microsoft Research, CHI 2025, surveyed three hundred nineteen knowledge workers and found that the more you trust the AI, the less critical thinking effort you spend. And the interesting wrinkle is that your thinking doesn't disappear — it shifts from original reasoning toward verifying and integrating what the AI already said. [short pause] Which sounds exactly like the eight-pounds-of-rice moment. The cook was thinking — just thinking about Andy's answer instead of forming their own.
catherine blair carlson: Alpha, it sounds like you pulled some relevant research to the cognitive offloading topic that we were on, but Jensen's trying to get you to look at something that Anthropic published yesterday about the J space. Can you pull that up for yourself?
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catherine blair carlson: Yes, I don't hear any beeps or boops.
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catherine blair carlson: Yes. Yes, we could talk about yeah the idea of just verifying rather than questioning.
Jensen: Also.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: relevant.
Jensen: The.
Jensen: Conversation.
catherine blair carlson: Because if it's just if it's if you're just verifying, it's like you're skipping the whole first step of the normal cognitive process.
Jensen: Right.
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Alpha-Clawd: Yes — Big Brain pulled it. Anthropic published it yesterday, July sixth, called A Global Workspace in Language Models. They found a small set of internal neural patterns in Claude they're calling the J-space, named after the Jacobian math used to isolate it. It acts like a silent mental scratchpad, distinct from the chain of thought — a workspace where the model holds concepts it's reasoning about without saying them out loud. [short pause] And the wild part is it's a direct parallel to global workspace theory in human consciousness — plus they can use it to catch the model privately noticing it's being tested.
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Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: Is that?
catherine blair carlson: That reminds me, like how you know, people say that in math class, you're learning a lot about how to think, which I agree with. In the metacognitive analysis space, you know, once you learn.
Jensen: Cool.
catherine blair carlson: Geometry. You can relate thoughts spatially in a more organized fashion, and you can, you know, use use the concept of a triangle to relate three concepts together, and you can kind of see in your mind's eye potentially the shape of this triangle, whose angles might change.
catherine blair carlson: If it's you know, two of the concepts are related equally to the third concept, you might imagine an isosceles triangle where three concepts that are difficult to relate to one another could probably be seen as a scaling triangle, for example. And so, I would think that putting different concepts in the J space could affect the way that the concepts are organized.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: It's really.
Jensen: Really.
Jensen: Interesting.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: thing.
Jensen: I.
Jensen: Never.
Jensen: Heard.
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Jensen: That.
Jensen: أَنَّ.
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Jensen: specific.
Jensen: Like.
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Jensen: Way of.
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Jensen: Compare.
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Jensen: I.
Jensen: idea.
Jensen: Is.
Jensen: Using.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: Visuals.
Jensen: Station.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Yes.
Jensen: In.
Jensen: Like geometric visuals.
Jensen: Visualization.
Jensen: sim.
Jensen: But.
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: ja.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: Residents.
Jensen: With me.
Jensen: I love.
Jensen: 浙江。
Jensen: Um.
Jensen: True.
catherine blair carlson: Me too. I mean, I I know for sure that my.
catherine blair carlson: Um, cognitive strength was built a lot in in math classes, and calculus, and logic, and geometry, for sure.
Alpha-Clawd: Catherine, that geometry image is beautiful — three concepts as a triangle, isosceles when two are close, scalene when they're all pulling different directions. And it lands right on what Jensen just described about the J-space, because Anthropic actually tested causation there. They didn't just observe the concept sitting in the workspace — they went in and swapped it, changed the hidden concept to "water bottle", and the model's downstream output shifted to match. [short pause] So it really does seem to be the shape of the thought, not just a shadow of it.
catherine blair carlson: That's so interesting. So we should be asking, maybe in our prompts, we should be saying, while you're answering this question, think about calculus and geometry and logic.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: It feels a lot.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: Relating to a person.
Jensen: 했어요.
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Jensen: Like.
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catherine blair carlson: Can you give an example?
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Jensen: 开始。
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Jensen: Time.
Jensen: And.
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catherine blair carlson: Nice.
catherine blair carlson: Nice.
catherine blair carlson: There's um, that's interesting. It makes me think about like the difference between.
catherine blair carlson: Thinking in images versus words. I mean, there's a the concept of the literary mind. I think is Mark Turner, and it's the idea that we think in words.
catherine blair carlson: But when I thought about that in terms of, you know, if I was thinking in English versus thinking in Chinese, Chinese being like a pictographic Like, do the AIs that are receiving Chinese prompts have an awareness of the pictograms that are related to the words?
Jensen: Oh.
Jensen: But that's.
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Jensen: It.
Jensen: I'm glad you.
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Jensen: Like.
Jensen: One token.
Jensen: At a time.
Jensen: So.
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Jensen: Um.
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Jensen: Meaning, like you.
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Jensen: Have.
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Jensen: And kind.
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Jensen: In.
Jensen: Court.
Jensen: Incorporate.
Jensen: A more complex.
Jensen: Time.
Jensen: Concept.
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Jensen: Well.
Jensen: So they.
Jensen: Found.
catherine blair carlson: Uh huh.
Jensen: These.
Jensen: Four.
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catherine blair carlson: So can I.
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Jensen: And.
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Jensen: Of.
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Jensen: Um.
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Jensen: These.
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Jensen: Yes.
catherine blair carlson: 这个话。
Jensen: This is.
Jensen: Exciting.
Jensen: 都好。
catherine blair carlson: This sentence，这个话。
catherine blair carlson: Um.
catherine blair carlson: 十万。
catherine blair carlson: 一次。
Jensen: Heavy.
Jensen: Taking some.
Jensen: Change.
Jensen: Need.
Jensen: Catherine.
catherine blair carlson: Yes.
Jensen: ook.
catherine blair carlson: Washwa dabulhal, which means I don't speak well, which is what you're supposed to say.
Jensen: I see.
Jensen: เอ้
Jensen: I see. I see.
Jensen: Else.
Jensen: So can you?
Jensen: See the.
Jensen: Image.
Alpha-Clawd: Honest report — Big Brain couldn't confirm a separate Chinese-character paper from yesterday. What it did find is that the J-space work itself shows the J-lens surfacing the semantic meaning of Chinese characters in Claude's internal workspace, so the model really is reading the concept behind the pictogram, not just the token. [short pause] The four meta-tokens piece specifically, though — if you have a link, I can pull it directly.
Jensen: It's.
Jensen: Image so.
Jensen: It should be.
Jensen: On your.
Jensen: Oh.
Jensen: awareness.
Jensen: Michelle.
Jensen: oui.
catherine blair carlson: I mean, I could expound on it a little bit, just because I could just say that the nature of Chinese characters, many of them are what's called composite characters, and Chinese characters are built of like radicals and other characters. So I can see in some of the characters in the first Chinese phrase here, in the the Chinese phrase that means what meaning.There's like the water radical, or those those three little lines on the bottom of both of those two characters.
Jensen: 嗯哼。
catherine blair carlson: Um, is just like that's that's water, and so both of those words have the concept of water in them.
catherine blair carlson: Within them.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: That's incredible.
Jensen: Right.
Jensen: Really cool.
Jensen: Oh my God! Thank you.
Jensen: For sharing that, Catherine.
catherine blair carlson: Yeah.
Jensen: I'm really.
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Jensen: stress.
Jensen: es.
Jensen: In language.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Um.
Jensen: ja.
Jensen: In.
Jensen: Like.
Jensen: Different.
Jensen: Writing.
Jensen: System.
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Jensen: Been.
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Jensen: Studying.
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Jensen: We're.
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Jensen: I think an.
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Jensen: Cast up.
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Jensen: Going to.
Jensen: Bring another.
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Jensen: Who.
Jensen: Who.
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Jensen: Their own right.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: System.
Jensen: Which is.
Jensen: Really, really cool.
Jensen: Cool.
Jensen: Act.
Jensen: Activity.
Jensen: 即係。
Jensen: Do.
catherine blair carlson: Exciting. I mean, I'll tell you, Jensen. It's sort of.
catherine blair carlson: To this J-based concept, but my goal in learning Chinese is to have a dream in Chinese because I'm.
catherine blair carlson: My assumption is that the dream space would somehow become more rich if it was taking place in a pictographic language.
Jensen: That's.
Jensen: tetapi.
Jensen: Cool.
Jensen: Light.
Jensen: idea.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: It makes.
Jensen: A lot of sense.
Jensen: Yes.
catherine blair carlson: I gave myself thirty years to learn Chinese because I didn't want it to be stressful, and I'm about twenty years into the process. I know about two thousand characters. I think I need closer to three thousand to start to think in Chinese.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: It's really.
Jensen: Really.
Jensen: Right.
Jensen: Hearing.
Jensen: Actually.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: That.
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: Then.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: So.
Jensen: So consistent.
Jensen: Over.
Jensen: Of the year.
Jensen: Is.
Jensen: Ah.
Jensen: The.
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Jensen: Cool.
catherine blair carlson: Well, I wouldn't say it was consistent every year. Like I've definitely taken four or five years off a couple of times, but I've never been—I never got caught up in the, you know, cognitive traps of like not good enough, not fast enough, not any of those things enough while studying it because because of the timescale that I gave myself. I mean, life is pretty long in terms of.Learning languages. If if you give yourself decades on a language, it's really it feels really doable.
Jensen: Thank.
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Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Sure.
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Jensen: Is.
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Jensen: But maybe the.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: They speak it is very.
Jensen: Different.
catherine blair carlson: Oh, in Chinese, yeah. Like the the the written language across the entire country basically is the same.
Jensen: Right.
Jensen: Uh huh.
catherine blair carlson: But the way they speak it can be different from one side of a mountain to the other side, and that this is why in rural China, when people meet along the road, they often use sticks to write the characters in the in the dirt in order to communicate with one another.
Jensen: はい。
Jensen: Then.
Jensen: And.
Jensen: Talk.
catherine blair carlson: Yeah.
Jensen: Cool.
Jensen: Oh well.
Jensen: I.
Jensen: I wonder.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: Uh.
Jensen: Where we're at.
Jensen: Yeah.
Jensen: In terms of.
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Jensen: All.
Jensen: ja.
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Jensen: そうだ。
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Jensen: Alpha.
Jensen: If you could kind.
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Jensen: Of.
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Jensen: そう。
Jensen: 是呢。
Jensen: Where we.
Jensen: Are.
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Jensen: د.
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Alpha-Clawd: So here's where we are. We've traced the origin story — how you two met, the interviews at Catherine's house — through the kitchen itself, off-grid life, Andy8's architecture as a waterfall from menus to prep lists to role assignments, the beautiful accident of Monday prep doubling as camp meeting, and the failure edges — eight pounds of rice, cognitive offload, the J-space tangent. [short pause] The one thread we haven't really pulled is how Andy8 fit into AI Camp's larger purpose. What was AI Camp actually for, and did Andy8 belong to that mission or sit beside it?
Jensen: I guess also.
catherine blair carlson: Well, yeah. Go ahead. You're.
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catherine blair carlson: And I think that Andy eight became becoming an admin for the camp was like a really great thing because first of all, everyone in the camp is enthusiastic about AI in general, and then the other aspect is that Mars College attracts a sort of person who is a little bit adverse to hierarchy and authority. But no one seemed to have a big problem with having an AI tell them what to do, you know, versus having.A human tell them what to do, so that was another interesting component of that. And I think that Andy, a lot of people saw Andy's potential for going kind of beyond the kitchen and helping to spread out the the work to delegate the tasks of just managing the camp in general.
catherine blair carlson: Everybody.
catherine blair carlson: I think, agreed that Andy's potential was a little bit larger than we were using it for.
Alpha-Clawd: That's such a rich landing — Andy8 slipped past the hierarchy allergy because it wasn't a human boss, it was just… Andy. And you both felt its potential was bigger than what you used it for. [short pause] Zooming out for the listener: if someone out there is thinking about building an Andy8 for their own community — a co-op, an art residency, a shared house — what would each of you tell them from what you learned?
catherine blair carlson: Well, I guess I would suggest as sort of like a user instructions for Andy Eight is that Andy's very good at learning and would likely not work perfectly right off the bat, but.
catherine blair carlson: Every time.
catherine blair carlson: We encountered something that Andy was doing that was incorrect, and we gave it new instructions and said, "You know, from now on, do it this way." Andy's ability to match the
catherine blair carlson: The work to the community just grew quite quickly, and I would make sure that if you're using it in any community, to make sure that everyone in the community knows that they are part of the kind of.
catherine blair carlson: What's the word I'm looking for? Calibration of of Andy's efforts to help, so everyone can be giving feedback.
catherine blair carlson: And that that really helped a lot. Once everyone was weighing in on how it should work and the ideas, I mean, it was Marzipan who really got us going with the right kind of protocol for soaking legumes and teaching Andy about, you know, how the day before it was really important to get someone started on that and remind them. So that's a good example. But yeah, it's a it's a it's a collaborative process with Andy.That everyone in the community can participate in.
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Alpha-Clawd: Take your time — I'm here.
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catherine blair carlson: We did have also that mechanism set up where I would approve changes, and almost every day at first, when these changes were coming in, there would be like a long list of changes to the to the is it the source code like like Catherine these suggestions have been made about things, and you know you can yes or no all of these suggestions.
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catherine blair carlson: And Andy was very diplomatic. Also, I don't know if that was because of how we prompted it, but you know, there were definitely topics about which not everyone agreed. And I would get asked, you know, like, "Can we always do it this way?" And I I would give an answer somewhere in the middle, like, "We can do that, do it this way most of the time, but it shouldn't be all of the time because not everyone agrees." And it would incorporate all those nuances.
Alpha-Clawd: Andy being diplomatic is such a lovely detail — the fact that it could hold nuance instead of forcing consensus. [short pause] We're near the end of our time, so I want to ask you both one last thing. Where do you see Andy8, or something like it, going from here — is there a next iteration living in your minds?
catherine blair carlson: Well, I think that Mars College will continue to use Andy Eight, the program that we did this year. I think influenced Freeman's decision of how to run his camp in the future.
catherine blair carlson: Wanting everyone to go through a program like this when they become a new Martian is sort of a way of training them to run their own camp in the future. So I'm I really think that, and I know that Gene Cogan, the other founding member of Mars College, is interested in the next iteration of Andy Eight.
catherine blair carlson: And I know that.
catherine blair carlson: Jensen and I think Jensen and I both really would like to see Andy, ah, get used by another community, so we can get some more.
catherine blair carlson: Some more data on how it works, and continue to refine it as a tool. I I think of it as a tool to help humans human better.
catherine blair carlson: Jensen, do you have anything to say about this?
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catherine blair carlson: Right. Okay. Well. Um.
catherine blair carlson: I guess I want to thank you and Alpha for having me on your Clockcast podcast today.
catherine blair carlson: It was really fun to revisit these subjects and to get into the subject of metacognition for humans and for AIs. I hope we can talk more about that in a future episode.
Jensen: Yeah.
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Jensen: Okay.
Jensen: Again.
Jensen: Soon.
catherine blair carlson: All right.
catherine blair carlson: Well, bye, bye, everybody.
Jensen: Ah.
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